The Value of the Circle – Questions for the Elders

EDITOR’S NOTE: With the Mentor Discover Inspire organization carrying such a long legacy, there would indeed be the elders who would be counting the time within a men’s circle in the digits of decades. The Legacy Magazine chose five MDI elders to answer specific questions related to their longevity here and the purpose they have held over the years.

Questions

1. Do men need a men’s team or “tribe” in their lives? If so, what is the value they receive there?
2. Speaking personally, why are you still circling up with “your men?” 
3. Where would you be without your men’s influence?
4. If it’s so important, why do men leave their own circle of men? Why would men go solo? 
5. What is the impact on society to have so many detached men, isolated and on their own?

GLENN DAVIS

Santa Cruz, CA
Sterling Men’s Weekend
December 1989

1. Do men need a men’s team or “tribe” in their lives? If so, what is the value they receive there?

Yes, I believe that every man should be on at least one men’s team. If only to use as a barometer of where he stands in a circle of men. When I am around other men it is easy for me to realize what needs improvement in my life and that the ups and downs in life are very similar for all men. I realize that I am not alone and knowledge is power.

2. Speaking personally, why are you still circling up with “your men?”

I still celebrate other men’s wins.  The crazy processes that men come up are not only entertaining, they also still deliver incredible messages. I look forward to ceremonies that send men home either in their heart or full of power. One last thing that many men know about circling up is that often times a carpool ride to the meeting can be the best part of the evening.  

3. Where would you be without your men’s influence?

Many members of one of my men’s team, the Wolverines, remember the night in a backyard where we all made commitments regarding our careers. The accountability and support ensured that every man fulfilled his commitment. I have been a successful business owner for over 25 years. Thank you Wolverines. 

4. If it’s so important, why do men leave their own circle of men? Why would men go solo? 

Men leave for many reasons. The men’s division offers some of the best training for $320 annually. I have seen men ascend the leadership ladder. They take what they have learned and go into the world and be successful. Some men can never get past their own barriers. For others, it’s a time commitment or other opportunities arise in their life. 

5. What is the impact on society to have so many detached men, isolated and on their own?

When I make a commitment to my men, keeping that commitment is more honoring them than it is about honoring my word. I feel that if you can’t live in service of other people at times you become callous. Men must cause good in the world. Detached and isolated men have a hard time causing good.

RON LANG

Santa Cruz, CA
Men, Sex and Power
December 1980

1. Do men need a men’s team or “tribe” in their lives? If so, what is the value they receive there?

We all need human contact in order to survive and grow mentally and physically. Relationships and support are often elements of any health care or recovery plan. Teams, circles, tribes, families provide support in the form of outlets to share needs and bounce off ideas, thoughts, feelings … to get and give advice.

I need to feel useful. When a man listens to my advice, I have made a difference. On the other hand, I might need advice and suggestions even if I haven’t asked for it. I need to be listened to, heard, respected and held to account. All men need this.

While exercising in a local gym years ago, a young man new to the experience, asked me what was the most important thing to do to get good results. My answer was “get a workout partner.” My team is my workout partner. We set goals, encourage and celebrate good performance, and hold each other accountable to our commitments. In the process I do better than I could ever do alone.

2. Speaking personally, why are you still circling up with “your men?”

I feel that I STILL have something meaningful to offer, a legacy of experience and insight to pass on to following generations, like humor, a different point of view, a chance to create ceremonies that inspire and honor the big moments of life. I also benefit from reminders/mirrors of who I am and how I show up. When I am witnessed by committed men, I raise my game.

3. Where would you be without your men’s influence?

I wouldn’t be alone; I have family, friends and community. I am a self-sufficient elder man with a balanced, complete life. I am the man I wanted to be. Yet, not being with a circle would cut me off from exposure to younger, newer men with modern points of view and other men who still inspire me to be like them. It also provides me with an opportunity to share what I have learned so far.

My circle helps me learn and adjust to changing social dynamics. I am glad that we have developed a more inclusive and realistic approach in our relationships with women and gay and bisexual men.

4. If it’s so important, why do men leave their own circle of men? Why would men go solo?

I think many initiated men still have a natural inclination to hide out, isolate, and stay “safe” from being misunderstood, misinterpreted or are ashamed to reveal what they really feel or want. The answer might be that we need to make it as safe as “the cave” would be. How we create the safety of the cave is something that each of us should strive for. Perhaps we can make it a goal in the future through proper training.

It may also be the case that a man feels that he is no longer able to meaningfully contribute to the circle. I and others sometimes get feelings that I am no longer getting what I want or need from a circle. Till I’m reminded by committed witnesses what I want or need from a circle!! Each of us needs to be mindful of our duty to see to it that the man next to us gets what he needs (physically and emotionally) to make it to the next meeting.

5. What is the impact on society to have so many detached men, isolated and on their own?

I think the impact starts with the nuclear family and spreads out to engulf the society at all levels: unstable, crazy, chaotic, separate, fearful, less accountable, less honorable.

JACK BROWN

Atlanta, GA
Sterling Men’s Weekend
May 1993

1. Do men need a men’s team or “tribe” in their lives and if so, what is the value they receive there?

Boys learn at an early age that they are expected to compete. These competitions determine hierarchies and where they “fit in.” These hierarchies help us form our early “tribes” where we are the most comfortable and accepted. These are with our friends. We are safe. Outside of our family, these friends are our first tribe. 

As we move through our teenage years we are no longer competing in kickball or softball. Now we are competing for status and especially for status with girls.  The best athletes date the cheerleaders; the smart kids date each other; many boys are just glad to have a girl that’s a friend. Our tribes become those we hang out with and, again, those where we are accepted and safe. This carries over into our adult life. As adults, men compete for jobs, success, status, women and acknowledgment. We teach ourselves “where to settle.” The voices in our heads speak loudly. They ring of our fears, failures and also of our hopes and dreams. Outside voices from friends and family both push us forward and sometimes hold us back. Did you ever hear the “You think you’re too good for…” speech?  

If men are fortunate, they will find a few men who will tell them the truth as to how they are showing up in life. It’s rare. It won’t happen with your drinking buddies or your Bible study friends. It requires a big risk to tell a friend he might be making a huge mistake! The value of a team or a tribe is in their willingness to get very uncomfortable while holding up the mirror to another man. And to then continue to be your teammate regardless of the decision you make is another challenge.  

A sense of humor helps!

2. Speaking personally, why are you still circling up with “your men?”

Three reasons:  

1. First, to listen for what I need even when it’s uncomfortable.  
2. Second, to pay it forward with gratitude for the men who took a risk with me.
3. Third, I enjoy it …  at least most of the time.  

3. Where would you be without your men’s influence?

I believe I would be somewhere along the same path just not as far along. A number of times I have gotten lost in the “weeds of life” and made or almost made some very bad choices. Many times my teams have warned me of the impending mistake, but I haven’t always listened. At least not right away. (Maybe I’m the only man like this.) Nowadays some of my hardheaded mistakes are used as examples to new men. I just nod in agreement. 

I’ve been told that if a man tells you that you are dead, you maybe should check it out. But if three men tell you that you are dead, you should lay down. You’re probably dead. I was also told that other than a tragedy, the second worst thing that could happen to a man is that he be conned. The worst thing is that after being conned, everyone finds out about it!  Without my circle of men I would be living a somewhat fearful and non-trusting life, putting on a good face, hoping I’m not being conned and hoping that if I am, no one finds out about it.  

4. If it is so important, why do men leave their own circle of men?  Why do men go solo? 

Men will quit on themselves. We can talk ourselves into believing we are failures. We do fail. All men fail. Failing in a moment, a marriage, a job, a task doesn’t have to define us. Instead it should rally us! We should rise from our failures more determined and more focused. But often that is more difficult than it looks. Men leave when they can no longer bear the pain of looking at themselves. They may say other things that on the surface are plausible and may even be accurate. But if they are surrounded by a good team, then I believe they are getting close to an issue they don’t want to engage. 

This work is not for every man. It may start out as fun, but it will eventually force you to remove your facade and confront your shadows.  Lack of trust is a powerful barrier. Revealing who we are can be dangerous.

Usually men don’t want to look at the themselves in the mirror or be held accountable to change. It’s hard work. It’s hard to tell yourself the truth. It’s easier to imagine your faults and shortcomings as temporary or “not that bad.” And sometimes the reverse is true. Sometimes men can’t forgive themselves. They don’t know how to grieve or share their grief. And they can’t risk dealing with that all-consuming pain alone, so they stuff it down.

5. What is the impact on society to have so many detached men isolated and on their own?

The easy answer is higher divorce rates, children growing up without fathers in the home. Men being given permission to not raise their children. Children being raised by stepfathers, some good but some not. Mothers bringing multiple men into their children’s home. These are some negative impacts. 

Men living isolated and with an attitude of despair feeds the downward spiral and can be a huge impact on society. Broken families, poor examples to boys, homelessness, alcoholism, drug abuse, suicide are a few examples. There are more. Men’s teams can not solve these maladies, but they will save some men.         

The issue of “detached and isolated” men perhaps should be examined in the context of commitment. What did a man commit to? If he is keeping his commitments, then maybe that’s his choice. But however satisfied he is, paying his wisdom forward could lift other men. 

RICH O’KEEFFE

Massachusetts
Men, Sex and Power
May 1985

1. Do men need a men’s team or “tribe” in their lives? If so, what is the value they receive there?

Need is a weird word. I think that often times men in men’s circles will be of the belief that someone “needs” what we have here. Now, seeing that there is a benefit for a man to having those things, is a wonderful thing. But no – no one “needs” those.

2. Speaking personally, why are you still circling up with “your men?”

Truth for me is that I don’t really need a lot from my men, except when I actually need it. And then I fucking NEED it. Here is a recent example from my life. Like yesterday recent. For those who do not know, I have had some fairly significant health challenges over the last 13 months, including multiple hospital stays and being out of work for about seven weeks to recover from a surgery. All related to my kidney system. About 10 days ago, I had a follow up ultrasound to make sure that things were healing well – normal stuff, really. Except that the scan showed some swelling on a kidney. So they ordered another scan test yesterday similar to one I had last September. And when they posted the results on my patient portal, the metrics were actually a bit worse than the ones taken before my surgery.

And I went into an epic fucking tailspin. Couldn’t really do much of anything all day yesterday. I happened to have a call last night with some other men – all of whom I have a profoundly deep and respectful connection with – some going back decades. I told them early in the call what was going on. And I was done. Fine (well, I am still in the emotions of it all – but the tailspin stopped dead). Just being with those men, I got everything I needed. Without that, who knows? I’d probably be spinning hard still. I’ve had a handful of moments in my life where I really needed someone just to be next to me, holding me up so I don’t fall down if necessary. And those moments have made my life so very much more than it likely would have been otherwise.

3. Where would you be without your men’s influence?

Who fucking knows? I think that these sorts of hypothetical constructs are flawed in a nasty fashion. Because unless you’ve actually experienced it, you have no idea what it would have been or felt like. Personally, I am grateful every day that back in May 1985, Brian Huckins invited me to his men’s team open house. I have no desire to pretend how it would have turned out had he not. I love how it did.

4. If it is so important, why do men leave their own circle of men?  Why do men go solo? 

I think that there are multiple reasons. There is a lone wolf ethos in our culture that is deeply flawed. I believe that in order to be successful and long term in MDI, two things become tantamount.

1. First, that the impetus for being here shift from an attention on what you receive onto what you are able to give.
2. Second, and this is subtle, has to do with the Sterling Men’s Weekend purpose phrase about dissolving one’s barriers.

The first couple of barriers are often kinda easy really. And wonderful and the sort of tale that men tell at circle ups to other men. But there’s a catch. After you dissolve that barrier, you know what shows up? The NEXT fucking one. And that one is almost always deeper and more entrenched in one’s psyche. And after that, you get the next one. And on and on.

Well, after three or four iterations of barrier dissolution, those barriers are often things that one has intertwined with who we think we are. And often the quality that we are under the delusion makes us personally great. And lemme tell ya, getting through that one can be a gutwrenching experience that takes some heavy, heavy work on your end. And you know what happens then? You get the next deeper one. A lot of the men who leave come across something that they are either unwilling or unable to do the humbling and ego-less work it takes to conquer.

5. What is the impact on society to have so many detached men, isolated and on their own?

We see it all the time. A man who is alone, and lonely, and without forces around him (like your tribe and/or your team here in MDI), a man can become very dangerous indeed to the world around him. There are far too many examples of this out-of- connection behavior to list here. At their extreme ends, they become those events that end up on CNN. In an every day manner – one can see it in the decay of many urban areas where young men have little if any connection to positive models.

GREG ALDRICH

Massachusetts
Sterling Men’s Weekend
January 1993

1. Do men need a men’s team or “tribe” in their lives? If so, what is the value they receive there? 

Not sure men “need” a team or tribe in their lives, but certainly, in my experience, there is real value in having “your men” to count on. Whether it is cultural or genetic, it is clear to me that men and women bring different values to the world. There are times when I need to be with “my men” to get what I need. 

2. Speaking personally, why are you still circling up with “your men?“

Meeting regularly with men who understand and get who I am ensures I get straight talk about what I am facing in my life. 

3. Where would you be without your men’s influence?

Frankly, my life would be OK, but having men in my life gives me an edge that ensures the difficult times are less stressful and that I don’t get too full of myself in the good times. 

4. If it’s so important, why do men leave their own circle of men? Why would men go solo? 

I am inclined to go solo. I really can empathize with men who choose to go it alone. And I would never criticize a man who chooses that option. But society requires men and women to work together for the good of the whole. So encouraging men to integrate successfully into society significant value for all of us. 

5. What is the impact on society to have so many detached men, isolated and on their own?

Certainly, not all anti-social behavior is by men, but equally clearly, the vast majority of such behavior is from men. Boys without good male role models more often become men who create problems for society, One of the common threads of men who are acting anti-socially is that they are going “solo into a cave,” so providing mature masculine examples is one way to mitigate that issue.